#11 | Queerness and MORE

Wild & Sublime Podcast Transcript

#11 | Queerness and MORE

[Wild & Sublime theme music]

Aiden Nicholson: [music under] We might have feelings of "Well, I've only been with one person, I trust them, you know?" But it doesn't have to be about trust. It's about keeping ourselves and our partners healthy.

Sarah Sloane: The choice to use the term "queer" is an acknowledgment that what we're doing is we're actually subverting a mainstream idea of what sex and what relationships are supposed to look like. You know, how we fuck is how we vote.

Karen Yates: Welcome to Wild & Sublime, a sexy spin on infotainment®, no matter your preferences, orientation, or relationship style, based on the popular live Chicago show. Each week, I'll chat about sex and relationships with citizens from the world of sex positivity, with spicy additions from storytellers and musicians. I'm Karen Yates. Today we discuss "queer or gay?" on What's Up with That? You'll also hear a lively and fun conversation about STIs,  plus a sexy song and poetry. Keep listening. Wild & Sublime is sponsored in part by Uberlube: long-lasting silicone lubricant for sex, sport and style. I highly recommend it. Go to Uberlube.com.

[music out] The word "queer" has had a long historical journey, as you will hear in the following segment. And most of us know a bit about what it's meant in the past. But what does it mean now? Is it the same as gay, or different? As I came to understand in talking with sex educator Sarah Sloane, it's a big term with lots of different meanings. And you yourself might decide you fit under its umbrella when we're through. Sara has joined me as part of our What's Up with That? series, where we discuss words and the sexual lexicon that might be confusing. Over the next month or two, we'll be examining words that describe sexual orientation, and you'll discover that there are a great many of them. Sarah Sloane is the director of communications and operations at #Open, the dating app for ethically nonmonogamous people and their partners. And speaking of partners, Wild & Sublime will be partnering with #Open on these particular What's Up with That? segments. You can learn more about #Open and their fantastic dating app in the show notes. And now, Sarah Sloane.

Sarah Sloane, welcome.

Sarah Sloane: Thank you so much for having me. It's so great to be back.

Karen Yates: I'm so excited to have you here with us. So, Sarah, today we're going to be talking about "queer or gay?" What's up with that?

Sarah Sloane: You know, in preparation for this conversation, I pulled out a couple of my books on queer theory last night, because I wanted to just make sure that I wasn't, you know, stating it incorrectly, or overstating or understating it.

Karen Yates: Okay, can I just — can I just jump in and say: queer theory! Folks, it's gonna get real, real smarty pants real now. Okay, okay, let's— Lay it on me.

Sarah Sloane: It's not gonna get too smarty-pants-real, because I think some of the challenge with understanding a word like "queer" is that the people that use queer, and I'm one of them, to identify ourselves, use it for nuanced, different reasons. In essence, queer means "different from." This is the original meaning of the term. It's the original— you know, we talk about, like the old British saying, "queer as folk." Nothing is as queer as folk. Just, people are strange, basically. And so, queer originally just meant different. Then in the late 1800s, early 1900s, it started being used as a slur against homosexuals. So gay men and lesbian women were often referred to as queer, and unfortunately, that became something that was used as — the word "queer" was used as a weapon towards people who were gay and lesbian. Part of what's happened in the last 30, 40, 50 years is that there's been a reclamation of the word queer, similar to the ways that folks have reclaimed the word "slut," and other folks have reclaimed words that have been used as slurs against their marginal identities, or marginalized identities. Queer is one of those words. So for many people, queer is still not a comfortable word to use for for their identity. Traditionally, the word "gay" and the word "lesbian" referred to people who are either male or female, that are same-gender loving. So it would be— a gay man would be a man who is attracted to other men. A lesbian woman would be a woman who's attracted to other women. There are nuances, because as you know, our understanding of gender has changed tremendously in the last 50 years. So, you know, there are breakdowns further within that. I have a friend who identifies as a lesbian, and she feels that her partner is a different gender, but the same sex. Her partner is butch, she's a femme. So for her, even though we would kind of say women and women, that's not quite 100%... Okay, let's back this up for a second.

Karen Yates: I'm like, "Damn, this is getting complex already." I hope the listeners are keeping up. Keep up, listeners!

Sarah Sloane: There's just so much. You know, there's so much to get into. Anyhow. So, lesbian and gay: same-sex orientation. Let's just call it that. Queer is something that, I think, transcends that. Queer is about a difference of how we live, and a difference of how we have sex as based on mainstream culture. So for a lot of people, queer is the umbrella term. You know, we have the the alphabet soup of LGBTQQIA+. All of that would fall under the umbrella of "queer." Queer is also often used for people who might look like they're straight, but are having sex in ways that aren't exactly straight. So, sometimes folks who are kinky might say that they're queer. Some folks who are ethically nonmonogamous might say that they're queer. But to me, the choice to use the term queer is an acknowledgment that what we're doing is, we're actually subverting a mainstream idea of what sex and what relationships are supposed to look like.

Karen Yates: Yeah. When I was coming up in — I was, you know, finding my sexual maturity at the end of the 80s, in the early 90s, like with the ACT-UP movement, and the AIDS movement, the word "queer" was really starting to come in, big time. For me as a young person, it was like a worldview. It was like saying, "I reject heteronormative standards, I am an ally, and I reject the the normative standards that have been set in place."

Sarah Sloane: And that's real similar to my choice of using the term. I think, if we were talking specifically about just who I am sexually attracted to, that would be — bisexual would be a really adequate term to use. Because that is the interest in both people who are like and unlike us. So, same as and different from. However, queer to me also has an acknowledgment that there is a social decision and a cultural decision to live outside of the norm. And for many people, it also has a political aspect. You know, how we fuck is how we vote.

I think the other thing that I would like for folks to be aware of is, like any term that has been reclaimed by some folks to be able to empower them, that that term can still be painful to others. So, the fact that I might think that it's totally fine to use the term queer for somebody who is gay or lesbian, that doesn't overrule their right to not use that term. You know, I have friends for whom the term "queer" has come right before they got hit in the head by a brick. And so for those folks, queer is not a term that they necessarily feel the need to reclaim. So, being mindful of the fact that anytime we're picking up one of those terms that's a little bit on the — we're re-empowering ourselves or we're reclaiming ourselves with an old term that's been used against us, we have to be mindful that for other people, that's still the way that they feel about it.

Karen Yates: So to recap: the term "gay" means same-sex loving. The term "queer" is a highly nuanced term, that can mean, say, alt-sexuality, rejecting normative standards, like heteronormativity. It can also mean embracing moving toward ambiguity.

Sarah Sloane: It can also mean choosing to not define yourself because you know that your desires are fluid, and you want to leave as much space as possible.

Karen Yates: I like that. That's beautiful.

Sarah Sloane: We used to — and when we thought that everything was going to be laid out on a little spectrum, and kind of the essentialist thought of, once you're whatever, you're always whatever... You know, for a lot of people who exist in queerness, it's the idea that, you know, today maybe my attraction is going to be more towards folks who are presenting masculine, or presenting androgynous, or presenting feminine, or presenting as all of the above, and maybe tomorrow or next year or the next decade, that's going to shift a little bit.

Karen Yates: So, you know, in the last series we had, with Logan Pierce, on gender, I always liked asking him near the end about addressing folks, or talking to folks that have presented with a certain, you know — that they want to be labeled as such, like trans or what have you. And so I would say, does queer invite a dialogue with someone that says, you know — like, on a dating profile, you see "queer." For example, you. And I understand you're not the representative of all queer folks. I get that. But like, is it disrespectful to say, "Hey, I noticed you put queer, you identify as queer. What does that mean to you?"

Sarah Sloane 

I don't think that it is. Because I think that when we use code, which is essentially — "queer" is code for us, or "gay" is code. When we use a code, what we understand is, it's a way of kind of carving out a space that says, "This is who I'm about." But that isn't always going to be apparent, what those boundaries are to somebody else. It's the same as saying, "Oh, I'm kinky." Well, that could mean anything from, you know, "Once a year on our anniversary, I like to spank my partner," to "It has to be whips and chains 24-7." And so, anytime we use a label, especially one that has so much room to move around in it — it's a great way to frame it, is to say, "Hey, I am curious. I see that you identified as queer. I'm curious what that might mean for you." Especially on a dating app, where folks are trying to build connection. I always feel like one of the best ways to draw connection with somebody, whether or not it's going to end up being sexual, is to say, "Tell me about who you are. Tell me about how this identity operates in your life. Why did you choose to turn queer? Why did you choose the term lesbian? And what does that mean to you?" I think that as long as it's not done in a kind of, "You need to educate me on this term" kind of a way, I think it's usually very well [done].

Karen Yates: Great. Thanks so much, Sarah.

Sarah Sloane: Thank you.

Matt Griffo: [Music] There's a monster party in my pants...

There's a mummy in my pants

and he's wrapped up nice and tight

There's a vampire in my pants,

but I swear he doesn't bite

There's a werewolf in my pants

in the light of my full moon

There’s a zombie in my pants

And my pants are now his tomb

There's a Monster Party in My Pants

There’s a Monster Party In My Pants

There’s a party in his pants

And Frankenstein and Demons are here to dance

You don’t have to let your pants contain ya

It’s spooky ooky ooky like Transylvania

There’s a party in his pants

Right below his belly

a gargoyle a yeti

and also Mary Shelly

There’s a party in his pants

And everyone is coming

Frankenstein’s the DJ

Everybody do the mummy

Whoa Whoa Whoa

This Party’s Getting Crazy

Whoa Whoa Whoa

That guy is not my friend

Whoa Whoa Whoa

This Party’s Getting Wild

Whoa Whoa Whoa

I have to say this monster party has to end

A zombie’s coming out my pants

He has to leave his tomb

A werewolf’s coming out my pants

Away from my moon

A vampire’s coming out my pants

He didn’t even bite

A mummy’s coming out my pants

Still wrapped up nice and tight

There was a Monster Party in My Pants

Karen Yates: Love that song. That was Matt Griffo, a Wild & Sublime regular, with "Monster Party in My Pants," part of his new, just-released Halloween album, "Songs for Monsters." I listened to it and I love it, and if you are a Halloween freak, you will love it too, and have it on heavy rotation. How do you find it? Well, you can purchase it through the link in our show notes, or listen to it on streaming platforms. And for all our Patreon subscribers, there is another sexy Matt Griffo song tucked into your Patreon feed. People have been joining our membership program, and it feels so good to be supported and to know that you are digging what you are hearing and that you want more. Memberships start at the $5 a month level. The link is in our show notes.

Most people dread having to talk with new partners about sexual health and STIs. Because at its best, it's awkward, and at its worst, it's terror-inducing. You're about to hear a delightful conversation I had in May 2019, with Aiden Nicholson. Aiden is an advanced practice nurse and midwife specializing in sex-positive primary and sexual reproductive health care of women and trans folk. Here, they walk us through getting tested, and why and how to do it. And maybe, just maybe, you'll learn that it's really no big deal. Enjoy.

[in front of live audience] So we're talking about how to talk to your partners about STIs — and how do you do that? I always think, you know, some people, it's a really easy thing to do, no big deal. If you're — you get tested regularly, whatever. But for some people, it is more difficult. And the first thing I want to ask you is, for things like HIV,  a lot of advances have been made, a lot of folks are no longer detectable in their levels. So I think there's a idea that it's cool, maybe you don't need to use safer sex techniques. But then there's other STIs that are on the rise, correct?

Aiden Nicholson: Absolutely. So over the last few years, we've noticed a marked rise in chlamydia, gonorrhea, syphilis. And all those are curable. But it doesn't mean that they're not things to really worry about. We've actually seen huge rises in congenital syphilis in infants, which can cause birth defects, and all sorts of nasty stuff. So, super important to still be using safer sex, super important to know our status. We talk a lot about HIV. And there's PreP, which we can take to prevent HIV. More and more people are taking HIV medications to keep themselves undetectable. When someone's undetectable, it means that they cannot transmit the virus, and they're also making sure that they can live to 80 and die of a heart attack, just like the rest of us. So, you know, it's — a lot of the horrible, scary things out there, you know, aren't so scary. But it doesn't mean that getting tested doesn't cause fear for a lot of folks. Maybe we've never done it, or just feels awkward. We might have feelings of, "Well, I I've only been with one person, I trust them." But it doesn't have to be about trust. It's about keeping ourselves and our partners healthy.

Karen Yates: Right. Because some STIs, the onset comes like, months or years after, correct?

Aiden Nicholson: I've had patients who said, "You know, I haven't gotten tested in a really long time, I've only had one partner." And, you know, they haven't had any symptoms. At any annual visit, I just make it normal. I'm just like, "Hey, let's do routine screening." And they've come back with trichomonas, which is a parasite that can completely lay dormant. We might not know that we have it. You know, most people don't have symptoms when they have an STI. Fifty to 75% of folks will say "I didn't have any symptoms," when they tested positive for gonorrhea or chlamydia in their throat, or in the urine, or in their booty. So when we're doing routine screenings, super important to tell the provider "Hey, these are the parts of my body I use for sex." Because oftentimes we'll go and  your GP will be like, "Oh, yeah, sure. So you're having sex with men and you have a vagina. So you use your vagina for sex. And that's the only thing you use for sex, I'm sure." [audience laughter] And it's like, "Well, let me tell you! I'm using this, and this, and then a strap-on too, 'cause he likes it..."

Karen Yates: I mean, quite frankly, you know, when I go for my yearly pap smear, my gynecologist has never asked me the variety of sex. It's just an assumption. Or it's whatever.

Aiden Nicholson: So, okay, I'm gonna jump on my soapbox for one quick second. Pap smears are not annual anymore. So if your GYN is telling you it's still annual, they need to check the guidelines. If we're under age 30, it's every three years. Super important. Please get your pap smears. After age 30, it's every five. But this doesn't mean that we still shouldn't be doing routine screenings. If we're sexually active, we should, you know, have those conversations with our providers. And as patients, we want our provider to bring it up. But if they don't, we should. Those of us that are maybe in nonmonogamous relationships, we might be casually dating — you know, if we've got multiple partners, we might want to do screening more often. So we might do it every six months. For my folks — I've got queer men on my panel and sex workers — and so for them, doing it every three months might make more sense. So it really depends on the risks that we're taking, how many partners we have, if we're fluid-bonded, if we're using condoms reliably. They only work if we use them consistently and correctly.

Karen Yates: So when's the best time to talk about status?

Aiden Nicholson: If you can do it before you get nasty, that's always the best point. Right?

Karen Yates: Right. But what if you're rolling around? You're in the rolling-around moment. [audience laughter] Maybe there's, like, a couple of pieces of clothes...?

Aiden Nicholson: No. No.

Karen Yates: What do you do? Seriously! Like, wow, here I am. I'm rolling around. [More laughter]

Aiden Nicholson: Karen, I'm having  problems. I'm having a really hard time focusing. [laughing] It's just so sexy over here. I mean, I totally encourage folks: have those conversations before you get to the bedroom. Because that way — I mean, for me, it's a screening tool. If you haven't gotten tested, if you don't know your status, you're on the 'no' list.

Karen Yates: So are you shouting from the bathroom as you're getting ready? "So anyway..."? No. Seriously. I'm joking.

Aiden Nicholson: Different people — we meet our partners in different ways, right? So maybe, you know, if it's a casual partner, we might have met each other on Tinder or Grindr. Great opportunities to be like, "Hey, before our date, you know, like before I know if you're cool or not — do you know your status? When's the last time you got tested?"

Karen Yates: That's actually perfect. Because then it's texting. It's a lot easier, right?

Aiden Nicholson: There's the anonymity. Which is really great. It's not in person. A lot of folks find it awkward. I think if we just cut to the chase and just say, "Hi, this is what I've done. What about you?" It makes it so that it's easier. Because then suddenly, they have to answer us. And then if they say, "Well, I don't know," then they look like the fool. I don't know. That's just me. It's a power trip. Just roll with it.

Karen Yates: And you were talking about testing as kind of a bottom line?

Aiden Nicholson: For me it totally is. And I mean, I'm somebody who, if it's a casual partner, I'm still going to use barriers for all sex with that person. But I still want to know that they're taking good care of their health. Because if there's somebody who doesn't think to do that, then I'm like, do you actually care about yourself? Are you thinking about these things? You know, what kinds of risks are you taking? And then I think to myself, well, how dare you put me at risk? Because you're not taking care of yourself. Right? So if I have a partner who says — you know, that I'm like, dating, and they say they won't get tested, then that feels abusive to me. You know, that is definitely a very strong value for me.  Because I want I want somebody to take good care of me, because I promise to take good care of them.

Karen Yates: And it's also a bridge moment where you could be like, well, we can go get tested together as well.

Aiden Nicholson: I love getting tested together. And all — I think it's fun. There's so much our culture really values fluid bonding. And when I say fluid bonding, I mean, having contact with fluids, right? So like, I'm totally, you know, like, sucking your cock, and I'm gonna swallow your cum. Or I've got your juices all over my face — super sexy to a lot of people. But also: suuuuuuper at risk for stuff. So like,  when we don't know somebody's status — like, we've had those conversations, or like, we think that they might have other partners, and so we might be still at risk for other things, we should really be using barriers. But then when we want to take that next step, you can totally mark the occasion by going, "Let's go together!" And then that way, there's no finger-pointing afterwards. Because that's awkward. Who had chlamydia.

And Howard Brown Health is a good place to get tested.

Absolutely. We've got a walk-in STI screening clinic, so people don't even need to be a patient of ours. And we're all super rad. We are like super sex nerds. So we're just like, Yeah, come get screened. Here's what is involved in your annual, your routine screening. Because a lot of people don't even know what they're being screened for. They say, well, "I got tested, and I'm clean." Well, I'm not dirty if I have something. Let's just start there. And do you know what you got screened for? Most people get screened for gonorrhea and chlamydia in the places they use for sex, HIV and syphilis. Sometimes, but not always, you might get screened for hepatitis. If someone is having vaginal symptoms, they might actually get tested for trichomonas, but that's also not a routine one. So there's lots of things — and you notice I didn't say anything about herpes. Not a routine test.

Karen Yates: You have to ask for it.

Aiden Nicholson: You have to ask for it. Most providers won't offer it, because there is a false positive and false negative rate. It's not the most accurate test. So honestly, since most of us have oral herpes, most of us have cold sores. You've had them since you were a kid. You know, when you're super stressed out, they pop up. When you have a cold sore, don't suck dick. Okay? Let's just go there. Because if we don't get cold sores, we can get the cold sore on our junk. And that's not always the funnest place to have a sore, right? We can take — if we have genital herpes, it's not the end of the world. There's a lot of stigma, but there's medication that we can take. And the longer we've had the infection,  the less frequently we have the outbreaks.

Karen Yates: Thank you so much, Aiden.

For more information on Howard Brown Health here in Chicago, check our show notes. And while Aiden is no longer at Howard Brown, you will definitely be hearing more interviews with them in the future. Wild & Sublime is also sponsored in part by our Sublime Supporter, Chicago-based Full Color Life Therapy, therapy for all of you, at fullcolorlifetherapy.com. If you would like to be a Sublime Supporter, showcasing you and your business and supporting us at the same time, contact us at .

And now it's time for my Sermon on the Pubic Mound. I've been feeling very poetical lately, and thinking about sexy literature and feeling called to read some. And I wasn't really sure: did I want to read a short story, did I want to read like a paragraph or two? And then suddenly — I don't know, maybe thinking about queerness, I looked up queer poets. And I stumbled across this poem, and I loved it. So I thought I would read it for you. Enjoy.

"The Encounter" by Louise Glück.

You came to the side of the bed

and sat staring at me.

Then you kissed me-I felt

hot wax on my forehead.

I wanted it to leave a mark:

that’s how I knew I loved you.

Because I wanted to be burned, stamped,

to have something in the end—

I drew the gown over my head;

a red flush covered my face and shoulders.

It will run its course, the course of fire,

setting a cold coin on the forehead, between the eyes.

You lay beside me; your hand moved over my face

as though you had felt it also—

you must have known, then, how I wanted you.

We will always know that, you and I.

The proof will be my body.

[music under] Next week, a new panel discussion on erotic creativity. Can't wait.

Thank you for listening. If you know someone who might be interested in this episode, send it to them. And please, if you like what you heard, give us a nice review on your podcast app. I'd like to thank Wild & Sublime associate producer Julia Williams and design guru visual Jean-Francois Gervais. Thmee music by David Ben-Porat. Our media sponsor is Rebellious Magazine, feminist media at rebelliousmagazine.com. Follow us on social media @wildandsublime and sign up for newsletters at wildandsublime.com.

Matt Griffo: [music] There's a mummy in my pants

and he's wrapped up nice and tight

There's a vampire in my pants,

but I swear he doesn't bite

There's a werewolf in my pants

in the light of my full moon

There’s a zombie in my pants

And my pants are now his tomb

There's a Monster Party in My Pants

There’s a Monster Party In My Pants

There’s a party in his pants

And Frankenstein and Demons are here to dance

You don’t have to let your pants contain ya

It’s spooky ooky ooky like Transylvania

There’s a party in his pants

Right below his belly

a gargoyle a yeti

and also Mary Shelly

There’s a party in his pants

And everyone is coming

Frankenstein’s the DJ

Everybody do the mummy...