#S2E1 | Sex Journey, Kink Journey

Wild & Sublime Podcast Transcript

#S2E1 | Sex Journey, Kink Journey

[Wild & Sublime theme music]

Pat Cochran: We had to stop having sex, because I was on bedrest about six months into the pregnancy. But then we didn't have sex again for about a decade. I totally lost myself and the connection to my body.

Mksthingshappin: I think I make a really poor boyfriend. An okay husband — but history has shown me I didn't really work out that well. But I make a fantastic Dom.

Karen Yates: Welcome to Wild and Sublime, a sexy spin on infotainment, no matter your preferences, orientation or relationship style, based on the popular live Chicago show. Each week, I'll chat about sex and relationships with citizens from the world of sex positivity. You'll hear meaningful conversation—dialogues that go deeper—and information that can help you become more free in your sexual expression. I'm sex educator Karen Yates. Today we'll hear two stories from people whose intimate explorations took twists and turns throughout their lives. One in sex, the other in kink. Keep listening.

Welcome to season two. You just heard a slightly different opening, which I'll talk about in a minute. It's been an interesting couple of weeks. We at Wild & Sublime have just redone our monthly membership program, The Afterglow, which is housed on Patreon, adding some very cool benefits for our subscribers starting at just $5 a month. Everyone who subscribes gets the chance to ask anonymous questions monthly, just like in our live show, to our wise and wonderful group of sex coaches, therapists, kinksters, writers. We then take all of those questions and do a Zoom livestream, which can be tuned in to buy some membership levels. But everybody receives the session, the audio session, at the end of the month. This past month, we heard from recurring guests coach Tazima Parris and therapists Brandon Hunter-Haydon and Jason Best. They answered questions about kink boundaries in your relationships, sexless long-term partnerships, and what to do, and more. Plus, now we have cool coffee mugs, because you gotta love the merch, and VIP-level folks can invite friends to the monthly Zoom hangout with myself and cool guests. Much of our income at Wild & Sublime comes from listeners just like you, and really helps us cover expenses. So consider joining monthly to help us out and wave the flag of sex positivity. The link is in the show notes. And if you'd like to give a one-time contribution for our work — maybe you've heard info you've been able to use, or perhaps the show has given you a different way of thinking about something — you can also go to the show notes for our PayPal link. A lot of folks are experiencing financial hardship right now. Maybe you think that what you're able to give isn't enough. But it is. We here at Wild & Sublime appreciate whatever you're able to contribute. Thank you.

So, taking a few weeks off has been a really great thing. And by "taking a few weeks off," I mean that. Not kinda-sorta. Really allowing space in my mind to happen. You all know — if you've listened to the Sermon on the Pubic Mounds that I do at the end of the show, you know that I struggle with doing a lot, always. So I really took time off, and did not do a lot around the podcast. In fact, virtually nothing. It gave me time to reflect and consider things about the podcast that give me pleasure, since that is one of the reasons we are here. And for me, one of the greatest joys, truly, and I really felt that when I was doing the Zoom panel discussion, is connecting with people, both the fans on social media and the guests on the show. I'm interested in the complex conversations around sexuality and intimacy, and how we can really understand ,how we can shine a light, as it were, on the parts of us that we want to disavow. So I felt that it was time to express that in the opening.

On today's show, I wanted to play two interviews I did with ordinary folks about their intimate lives. Since so much about sex and sensation gets shrouded or held away from the public view unless it's been massaged and manicured in porn or in other ways, I thought it would be good to hear some un-manicured stories, some basic realness for you. This first interview happened January 2020 at the Boxcar, an intimate cabaret space in Chicago, as part of our season preview show. Psychologist Pat Cochran agreed to get onstage and tell her story, from freewheeling teenager to freewheeling 60something, with a lot of detours and cul de sacs in between. Enjoy.

[audience applause] So, uh... hi.

Pat Cochran: Hi. It's a good thing I can't see all of you out there. [laughter]

Karen Yates: Yeah. This lighting is really good. So my question to you is... You're in your early 60s now.

Pat Cochran: Yeah, I just turned 61.

Karen Yates: Right on. Happy birthday.

Pat Cochran: Thank you.

Karen Yates: And so, in looking at your life, and all of these many transitions... Let's start with: When did you first realize sex was a thing? When did sex first get on the map for you?

Pat Cochran: Hmm. I'd say when I started masturbating, which was when I was 10. I started feeling this unusual feeling in my groin, and touched myself there, and boom. And it was like, off and running.

Karen Yates: Did you actually have an orgasm the very first time you touched yourself?

Pat Cochran: I think so.

Karen Yates: Wow.

Pat Cochran: That's what I remember.

Yeah, I didn't that didn't happen to me. I was afraid. I was afraid like, what's gonna happen? What's gonna happen if I orgasm? Will my head explode?

I didn't know what any of this was!

Karen Yates: You were ten. You hadn't read Cosmopolitan yet!

Pat Cochran: No, no. My parents were fairly open about touching and kissing with each other. So I didn't — and I grew up without this feeling like, oh, because I'm a girl, I shouldn't like sex, I shouldn't do this., I shouldn't be that. Even though I had, you know, friends who were saying these kinds of things. It just never occurred to me to feel that way. I feel really kind of privileged that I didn't have that for me.

Karen Yates: Because your parents didn't ever impart that to you.

Pat Cochran: They didn't. In fact, when I had my first boyfriend with whom I wanted to have sex, I was senior year of high school, and I told my mother that my boyfriend and I wanted to start to have sex. And she said, "Oh, okay. So let's take you to the gynecologist." And I got birth control.

Karen Yates: Because this is probably like, then like the late 70s, right?

Pat Cochran: 1976.

Karen Yates: Okay, yeah. That's pretty amazing.

Pat Cochran: Yeah. And then the same thing happened with me and my daughter. She said to me, you know, her boyfriend... And I took her to get birth control as well. So, I was without that kind of difficulty. But that didn't save me from having difficulty later!

Karen Yates: Of course. Yeah. So,  in your early, sexual experiences, kind of talk us through that. Like, were you kind of free and open in the early days of your being sexually mature?

Pat Cochran: To some degree, I still didn't really know much about sex. And I remember, oral sex seemed exotic to me. Like, I'd heard about it, and I didn't know anyone who did it. No partner was doing that with me.

Karen Yates: To you, to you.

Pat Cochran: With me. To me, you know, me to them. And I still ran across a lot of men who were like, what, you want to have sex? We're not, you know, we're not dating. We're not getting married. Things like that. Which always kind of baffled me. So I always felt like somewhat off the, you know, the norm in the culture.

Karen Yates: Right. Because I mean, at that point, now, we're talking about early, maybe late very late 70s, early 80s. So this idea of like, women can just want sex,  without being in a relationship, was still kind of an odd idea.

Pat Cochran: Somewhat odd. Yes. Even though [it was affected by] the sexual revolution that happened in the 60s. And I went to a progressive college. It wasn't like I was at some, you know, conservative place. But that conservativism really seemed to be there, and it just didn't fit.

Karen Yates: So how did you kind of make your way through that? Like this idea of wanting just to have sex for sex's sake, and not necessarily always wanting to be into a relationship? How did you end up making... not peace with it, but making your way through it?

Pat Cochran: I just kept initiating sex. [;aughter] I wasn't stopping myself. But mostly the partners that I was having, I had developed a friendship with these guys beforehand. So I felt comfortable with them, I felt trusting, I felt some kind of rapport, as well as some sexual tension. And even though we might not be, you know, going out together as boyfriend and girlfriend, I'd suggest having sex. And I guess, you know, "friends with benefits" kind of idea had not yet occurred to most people. But those worked eventually.

Karen Yates: You were still ahead of the curve on all of these like ideas, which are now  way more prevalent in culture. But back then,  just this idea of like friends with benefits, was like, "What?"

Pat Cochran: Right, right. Yeah.

Karen Yates: And  usually the narrative  at that point was fairly disempowering to women.

Pat Cochran: Right. Like, yeah, this whole idea that even though there was birth control, and you could have sex before marriage, you didn't have to be in a relationship, still there was a lot of shaming of women who wanted to have sex. I didn't end up finding partners who were like that. But you know, that's probably because I became friends with these men beforehand.

Karen Yates: And were you on the birth control pill?

Pat Cochran: Yes, I was.

Karen Yates: So then what happened?

Pat Cochran: Then, I became born again Christian in college. Really, what I had was really an experience of the Divine, which was important to me. But I started hanging around with progressive people who were Christian, and started to hear this conservative point of view about Christianity, which is, oh yeah, you're not supposed to have sex until you get married, and things like that. And I met the man who did become my husband, and he didn't want to have sex before marriage. So, we didn't actually have penile-vaginal intercourse until our wedding night, literally. And so, I lost all of that point of view, and free expression, and initiative, and so on. And while it felt like our sex life was a good one, up until the time when we had kids, which was eight years of our relationship, it still was very stilted. It's as if my whole consciousness about myself sexually just went into the unconscious. Which are, you know, therapeutic terms. But it's like I'd completely dissociated, or forgotten about that part of me.

Karen Yates: it seems  almost like your inner spirit, or your your sense of self got, like, subsumed into  a larger cultural idea.

Pat Cochran: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. It did.

Karen Yates: Which happens to many, I mean, a lot of us, right? We have these larger cultural ideas that we live in, which are part of — and culture reflects back ideas of sexuality.

Pat Cochran: And then we had kids. We had twins, which were a lot of work. And we had to stop having sex, because I was on bedrest, about six months into the pregnancy. But then we didn't have sex again, for about a decade. At all. None whatsoever. And I just fell into this role of being "mother." And I was actually in graduate school to become a psychologist, so I poured myself into that. And I just totally lost myself, and the connection to my body. I gained a lot of weight. And I just felt terrible about myself. And I also felt like, you know, very contrasting, almost 180 degrees different from what I was in college. I didn't feel like I could talk to my husband about this at all.

Karen Yates: Yeah. I mean, it's amazing how that can happen. You're in a relationship with someone, and there's this sense of like, "How do we even discuss something that's really important?" Like this.

Pat Cochran: Yeah! I'd buy these little books from the bookstore about, you know, sex positions, or, little games about... you know, that they sell at Early to Bed. What can we do, and things like that. Or we'd go on a vacation, and I'd think, "We'll finally have sex!" But no, nothing ever happened. And so that just ate away at my own  sense of self, and my connection to all kinds of things about myself. And so it was this negative spiral that just kept going down.

Karen Yates: And did you ever seek any sort of counseling with your husband?

Pat Cochran: Not at that point. We ended up staying married for 23 years, and about three years before we got divorced, we went to therapy then. And that was the premier thing. I said, "It's not just the lack of physical intimacy, it's also lack of emotional intimacy that we have." Because those things go together.

Karen Yates: They do go together.

Pat Cochran: Yeah. I don't think you can have one without the other.

Karen Yates: Right. Because if you're emotionally intimate, it follows that you'd be able to speak about sexuality with each other more easily.

Pat Cochran: Yeah, yeah. But everything just became too shame-attached and connected. And so we just said less and less and less to each other.

Karen Yates: Yeah, I mean,  I've been in a similar position, and it's amazing how isolated one can feel, right? Like, you're the only one. I'm the only person on the planet not having sex. Who's in a relationship. I mean, it's one thing being single not having sex. But it's another thing being in a relationship with someone you should be having sex with. Right? And so it's very weird. It's a very weird head trip.

Pat Cochran: I even went to my physician and said, I'd like to be tested for my level of testosterone, because I have no libido left. But it was a "You're not using it, so you've lost it."

Karen Yates: Yeah, I mean, I think it's kind of a survival mechanism. The body's like: "And... down." You know, just to save your sanity. So then what happened?

Pat Cochran: So then we did get divorced. And a couple years after that, I started to date online. And the the first boyfriend that I — well, the first guy that I started to date, that I had sex with, it was like it was in college. And things started opening up again. I also started paying — before I even started dating, I really started paying attention to my body differently, and accepting it, and being grateful for it. And so I lost that extra weight, but I also really felt like I was losing all of the negative, shameful things that I had been putting on myself during those sexless years. And so then I just realized, wow, this is really important to me.

Karen Yates: Yes. Like you found yourself again.

Pat Cochran: Yes. Yes, I did.

Karen Yates: Did you have remorse that you had so many years without sex?

Pat Cochran: Yeah. [audience laughter] I still do.

Karen Yates: No, I mean — thank you for that honesty. Because, I mean, it's one thing to be like, "No, it was a learning experience..."

Pat Cochran: No! One I would rather not have had. When I realize how important sex is to me, and how much I gain from the connection with another person, and to myself, and to so many other things, through the act of physical intimacy, sex,  that I missed for so long, that was so important to me, and I was just so unaware of it for so long. You know, basically 15 years all told, and it just...  That's just too many years. So I am saying these things, in part, to say to people, "There is a way out of that." It does require you thinking about yourself differently, and saying, "Is this important to me? Was it ever important to be? Do I want it to be important to me, even though I've never found it to be something that feels right to me?" Can you make your way through to having that be in your life?

Karen Yates: Yeah. I remember being in therapy once, and my therapist saying— I was talking about I was in a relationship where we weren't having sex, and my therapist was like, "Well, you know, it's enough you could break up with this person because of that." And I was like, "What? What? I could?" But yeah.

Pat Cochran: Well, it was in my own personal therapy, my own individual therapy, that my therapist said to me — that started this three-year process of trying to figure out whether or not I wanted to stay in the marriage was, "How's your sex life?" That's the question he asked. And I was like, "Uhhh, well, that's complicated." We started talking about it, and then that was in a sense what started to open my eyes about it.

Karen Yates: So what would your  final words be to folks who might be feeling like they're in a  transition moment in their life, and really are so deep into it, they don't know if they're going to come out the other side around their relationships to themselves sexually?

Pat Cochran: I'd say, try as much as you can to believe in yourself. That you are a good enough person as you are right now. And that there is there is a path out, every Labyrinth goes way in, but it also comes out.

Karen Yates: Awesome. Thanks, Pat.

Pat Cochran: You're welcome.

Karen Yates: Pat is the founding member of Full Color Life Therapy, our Sublime Supporter. More info on Full Color Life Therapy is in our show notes. In our next interview, you'll hear from recurring Wild & Sublime guest Mksthingshappin, a Chicago Dom and kinkster, as he relates moving into a kinkier way of being as he got older. This was recorded June, 2019, also at the Boxcar.

[in front of audience] You know, one thing we've talked about is your first fetish.

Mksthingshappin: Ah, memories.

Karen Yates: Yeah. So let's talk about — you were a kid, right?

Mksthingshappin: Yeah.

Karen Yates: And so, I want to talk about your first — the other thing I need to say:  I didn't really actually set you up very well. Mksthingshappin is a Chicago kinkster and a Dom, among many things.

Mksthingshappin: Among many things.

Karen Yates: But a kinkster for the most part.

Mksthingshappin: Hmm...

Karen Yates: Ish?

Mksthingshappin: I'll take over.

Karen Yates: Okay... [laughter]

Mksthingshappin: I like being in control, what can I say?

Karen Yates: I know! Like the Dom that he is...

Mksthingshappin: So you know, my background, if you will, for the last seven years, I consider myself being full-time in kink. My relationships, my current relationships, are power-exchange based. I'm very big into the kink community. I'm 52 years old. So you know, I guess some people might consider that late in life. I am more powerful now than I've ever been. [cheers and applause] I want to brag a little: I had sex three times today already. [audience cheers] Bragging, I know. So, to answer your question, I am absolutely a Dom. A dominant. I have two subs. But the funny thing is, my first kink, and it will always be near and dear to my heart, is a foot fetish. You know, traditionally, most people think of a foot fetish as a submissive activity. And I'm like, no, that's not really how I think of it now. I thought of it like that then, and for... God, easily 20-something years, I was very ashamed of it. In fact, I was ashamed of all the weird thoughts I had growing up. And it wasn't really until I got divorced, when I had the opportunity to reboot my life, that I actually embraced this aspect of me.

Karen Yates: So  when you did when you did encounter your first kink, what was that like for you? Like, what did it — do you remember the moment?

Mksthingshappin: There's so many moments, and it's not... One of the things I love about it is, there's an ongoing first. It never ends. And you know, I don't know who identifies as kinky here, and who's kink-adjacent, who's just curious... Three years ago, four years ago, when I thought I knew everything there was to know about kink, I happened to go to an event called Twisted Tryst, which is kinky camping, and realized I knew nothing! You know, I'm a badass, I know how to flog, and I know how to whip, and I know every— nothing! And every day, every experience, every partner is constantly renewed. You know, as a matter of fact, this is a slight tangent. You know, my one of my current slaves, we've been together about two years. It's a formal D/s relationship, high in protocol.

Karen Yates: What does that mean?

Mksthingshappin: It's a power exchange relationship, where my partner has consented to let me take control of most aspects of her life.

Karen Yates: So what does that look like? Like a couple examples?

Mksthingshappin: Well, out of context, it sounds very controlling, and abusive, if you will. And it's not that. It's 100% consensual. As a matter of fact, my official disclaimer is that anything I mention to you tonight, my partners have expressed 100% consent. Okay, so I want to make sure that is very, very clear. If they don't consent, it doesn't happen. So, um, she drives me everywhere, when we're together. She opens the door for me when we go into the car. She serves my meals, and she kneels to me when she's presenting it. These are all the sexy highlights stuf, but, you know, I hope we get to the real power, if you will, in being  in this type of relationship. Everyone knows the "Marquis" behaviors, and you know, everyone knows the "50 Shades" crap, and the "Secretary." Everyone knows that, but it's rare for people to get a glimpse of what actually is happening in a power exchange dynamic.

Karen Yates: Well, let's talk about it.

Mksthingshappin: Okay, what would you like to know?

Karen Yates: Well, let's go deeper.

Mksthingshappin: I was married for 15 years. Very vanilla, traditional relationship. That didn't pan out. Nothing to do with kink, nothing to do with sex. It's just, people change. You're not the same person you were 10 years ago. It's pretty clear.

Karen Yates: But you had thoughts?

Mksthingshappin: Oh, I've always had thoughts. Like, always!

Karen Yates: So where did you put that? This  is what I'm really interested in. Where did you put all of that?

Mksthingshappin: I repressed the thoughts. I didn't share with my wife. The one thing I did share with my wife was the foot fetish. You know, one night she's like, "Okay, let's do it." Alright, great. I can't believe this is happening!And it happened, it was wonderful. And then, the first time we got into a fight, she threw it in my face. Which taught me I can't share. So, I think I make a really poor boyfriend, an okay husband — but history has shown me I didn't really work out that well. But I make a fantastic Dom. And the reason is that in order for those type of relationships to work, you are forced to be vulnerable, you are forced to communicate, you are forced to negotiate. Or it'll fail. I mean, there's no two ways about it.

Karen Yates: And let me just say — I think for people who aren't kinky, there's this real, superficial idea that, like, someone's just coming in with a flogger, and like, beating another person. But there's not the understanding that it really is a deeply communicative form.

Mksthingshappin: It's actually super connective. For you to say to someone, "I would like to hurt you," and for someone to go, "Yes, I would like you to hurt me," goes against everything society has taught you. And there's a level of vulnerability to even ask the question, or to ask for what you want. And when you do that, there's almost an automatic bond with that person. Because you did not shun me for something that I've been ashamed of sharing for decades. And so there's a bottom line foundation — and what I've found, being in a D/s relationship, because the power exchange requires communication, requires negotiation, requires just being together, being vulnerable... Outside of that, because there are 24/7 relationships, when something comes up, a problem, you have tools now to deal with it. So for example, a conversation I had with my partner who lives in Madison. She's moving to Chicago in about a year. And we sat at Red Robin, over really bad burgers, talking about my potential jealousy. We're both poly. We both  would not have it any other way. But, you know, me being me,  the whole, "This is mine! You're not supposed to look at anyone else!" It's your lizard brain going against your evolved brain. So we talked about it. We didn't come to any type of conclusion — that wasn't the intent. It was just a matter of expressing that. And I know from past relationships, when a partner was coming to even visit, or spend time, those conversations never happened. And guess what happened? Big figh. Big fight.

Karen Yates: Talk to me about your evolution and kink. You left your marriage. What has happened to you in the past number of years, as you've expanded your knowledge of kink. Like, how has your viewpoint changed as you've moved into one modality to the next?

Mksthingshappin: So I started kink officially December of 2012. That's when I moved into my condo. Single. Do whatever the hell I want. And I did whatever the hell I wanted! Dated a ton. Anyone who said yes, I was like, "Yes, let's do something." And that was dating. It was vanilla, it was poly, there was kink stuff. I was just happy to be free. And then as time went on, I also did not want a formal relationship, because I just got out of one. So it was dating, and being social, and meeting as many ,and having tons of sex that I wasn't having when I was married. I did not have much sex when I was married at all, which kind of explains why I do it as much as I can now. So over time, I started meeting people that said and did and mirrored a lot of things that were in my head. And so naturally, you're going to be attracted. And naturally you want to get into it. And slowly but surely, the people who were more traditional vanilla became less interesting, because I had to hide part of myself. You know, there was a phase where after two dates, I will tell them I'm poly, and after four dates, I will tell them I'm kinky. And it was too much for quite a few people. I think some of you know what I'm talking about. You're constantly coming out. And after a while, it was a matter of "Okay, I really only want to see people who are poly." Okay, well, poly doesn't necessarily mean they're kinky. So that was another uphill battle. And then eventually, at this stage, after many, many years, it became, "I only want to see people who are poly and kinky." And what that means is that I can be 100% authentic of who I am. I can explore different aspects of kink and relationships. And in case you're not clear, a prerequisite to be kinky and poly is you have to do a lot of self discovery.

Karen Yates: Yeah.

Mksthingshappin: You have to know who you are. And that is a goddamn tough conversation to have. [laughter] Because a lot of parts of yourself, you are not going to be excited about.

Karen Yates: Yeah, I mean,  talking about like sexual — I mean, this is the this is the month of pride, right? And so  I'm very aware that part of what the show is doing is this idea of — I don't like to use the word "normalizes" sexual conversation, but it's basically making people comfortable talking about sex. But there is this idea that if you are to own all of these aspects of our sexuality, our kinkiness, whatever, you have to be willing to look at it. It's one thing to express, but before you express, you have to  examine. And society in general is always, like, kind of putting its foot down. On our necks.

Mksthingshappin: There's so many reasons for you not to do this. So many legitimate, some illegitimate reasons. And the biggest deterrent in this day and age is yourself. You know, back in '97, when I was first exposed to real kink, where I went to Hellfire Club in New York, because the internet existed for the first time from my point of view, and I was able to find it, you know, that was great! I was able to explore. Before that, there were no avenues. I was the only one in the world that had these thoughts. Now, it's totally different. You can sit on your couch and meet 20 kinky people in 10 seconds if you wanted to. So now, the biggest deterrent is how you feel about it internally.

Karen Yates: Mm hmm.

Mksthingshappin: You know, we talked about my sexuality. I've always identified as straight, or heteroflexible. And just recently — and this is like, a big deal for me —just recently, I've determined that I'm more attracted to female energy, which might and has been, independent of biology. And for me to actually be comfortable saying that to myself was a big deal. Me saying this now is like, a huge deal. You know, because being, once again, 52 years old, I heard all the bullshit. All the traditional, "You don't cry, be a man, don't be a fag, blah, blah..." All this crap. Those things still play in my head. You know, I'm way more evolved than I was in my 20s. But, you know, it's still in your head. And you have to choose who you want to be. and then do it. Easier said than done, but it's entirely possible, and up to you.

Karen Yates: So... [audience applause] Yeah, let's give him a little... [applause] I guess to — not to sum up, but... I love just this idea of owning every part of oneself sexually, which is what I hear you say. That basically you've owned  all of these parts. But  I'm also interested in the fluidity and the evolution. This is a snapshot of where you are  right now. What's changed in the pas — you've talked a little bit about being heteroflexible. But like, what  do you see going forward for yourself? What's of interest now?

Mksthingshappin: No clue. Seriously, no clue. And one of my core beliefs, when it comes to kink and fetishes, is that your fetishes, you don't learn. They're already inside you. And you spend time discovering what they are. You know, three years ago, I thought, "Oh, people who do rope, they don't know what the hell they're doing, it takes so much time, it's kind of a waste. Just get to the good stuff!" Now, three years later, I love doing rope. I would not have predicted that at all. So it's an ongoing journey. It never really ends. You know, I did pig play for the first time...

Karen Yates: What's that?

Mksthingshappin: Oh, jeez. [laughter] If you're familiar with pet play, someone dresses up as a dog or a cat. And they, you know — pretend that I happen to like pigs. Traditionally, it's normally thought of as more humiliation. As a matter of fact, it's the total opposite for me, when I'm with my partner and she's as a pig. I am super affectionate, super loving, very touchy feely, and it's a different aspect. And my point is that, I don't know why I like that. I have no clue! I never lived on a farm, you know... Charlotte's Web was not my favorite book.

Karen Yates: [laughter]

Mksthingshappin: None of this meant anything! I've decided I no longer care why. As long as myself, my partners are onboard, and we can share, "Hey, I really would like to do this." You're not required to do it. It doesn't even — oh, it does kind of matter. But it almost doesn't matter that, whether or not they want to do it, is being involved with a person or persons that are least willing to go, "Yes. No. Hell no." But not shut you down for just suggesting it. So the journey never really ends.

Karen Yates: Well, on that note, thank you so much for being here.

Wild & Sublime is also sponsored in part by our Sublime Supporter, Chicago-based Full Color Life Therapy, therapy for all of you, at fullcolorlifetherapy.com. If you would like to be a Sublime Supporter, showcasing you and your business and supporting us at the same time, contact us at . And now, it's time for my Sermon on the Pubic Mound.

What struck me in listening to the stories today is how much we can change during our lives. Where we are in life at 25 or 30 is not where we will be at 50 or 60. The things that made us happy then won't always be the things that make us happy now. I think it's easy to lose hope if we're in a place where we seem extraordinarily stuck, especially if it's around a relationship or about our sex life. You might be lying in bed at night, staring at the ceiling thinking, "I'm never gonna be able to turn this around, I'm going to die never getting laid again." Or, "I'm never going to have an orgasm," or "I'm never going to get my libido back." Or "I'm always going to feel pain during intercourse," or "I can't be open about the things that really turn me on, because if I expose that, I'm going to get destroyed somehow, or people will leave me." Some of the most basic questions in life are. "What makes me happy? And what do I want, really?" But those questions can be hard to answer. Especially if you know that answering them truthfully will mean change. Because change is the unknown. And change leads to things that cannot be controlled. And sometimes it's seemingly easier to stay in the same place than take a different action. Or sometimes we don't know the answers, or we don't know that there was even a question until something gets shaken up. In the stories you heard today, change occurred after the end of a major relationship. But that's not always the change agent. Sometimes it can be the death of a loved one, or having a big dream one night, seeing a sex video of an act you've never seen before, or even hearing a story on a podcast. Big shakeups aside, I'm a fan of small actions. Why? Because they keep us moving in the direction we want to go, and they're easier for our nervous systems and our psyches to assimilate. What is the smallest action you could take that will lead you to a place you want to explore? Is it a Google search? Confiding something to a trusted friend, buying a book, looking up apartments for rent? Even one small change has an impact, because we're no longer the same person once we've accomplished it. We now have new information, and are different. Over time, all the tiny movements turn the boat. And we look back and realize we've come pretty far.

Next week, how do you get out of your sex rut? Our panel discusses. Thank you for listening, if you know someone who might be interested in this episode, send it to them. And please, if you like what you heard, give us a nice review on your podcast app. I'd like to thank Wild & Sublime associate producer Julia Williams, and design guru Jean-Francois Gervais. Theme Music by David Ben-Porat. Our media sponsor is Rebellious Magazine, feminist media at rebelliousmagazine.com. Follow us on social media @wildandsublime and sign up for newsletters at wildandsublime.com.